Are you afraid? Or are you simply following a plan? Or following what your words need for right now?

Sometimes I think it can be very hard for those of us who are feeling our way around organically, or by smell through the woods: there are so many sources that tell one to have a plan or to follow a "logical progression." I don't know about you, but sometimes I read those and my only reaction is to feel bad about myself for not going with the grain.

Even though I know that, like you, to force it only results in crap.

From my experience in writer's groups, the things I learned the most from were when all half-dozen or so of them agreed that some part of the story was problematic, but disagreed as to why. It forced me to not only be clear in my mind as to what I wanted to say, but to also gain an understanding of how many different ways the same words can be interpreted, and then also to learn skills to gently guide the flow of consciousness of the reader, so that (mostly, anyway) 10 different readers wouldn't have 10 different experiences.

Hmm...there's more to it than that. If the story is a congruent enough whole, even if the story means different things to different people because of what they bring to it as a reader, no one paragraph will stick out to any of them. They will see it from different perspectives, but they will all experience a story that is integral, that is whole.(There's got to be a more elegant way to say this.)

Anyway, back to your tale here--this guy might be one of those rare people who do become masters of their craft even though they hide their words in a drawer, learning only from their internal experience of the writing and not from the feedback of their readers, but unless his heirs publish his work after he dies, who will know?

And does it matter? Frankly, I care more about the stories I actually have a chance to read.

I agree that art can be simply personal expression, and not shared, and still be valid. Some people are very private by nature.

Another, separate point is that I think most people want their art to communicate, they want their expressions listened to, or looked at, or read. So it's valid to wonder why a particular person feels a need to brag that they do art, if they won't share it.

But I reserve the right to not be impressed if someone sings for an hour every day, if that singing is only in their closet. Said art doesn't impact my life, for good or bad. The bragging, of course, is another matter.

If the only impact a guy's art has on my life is him wanting to claim to be in my club without sharing his art with me (or worse, him trying to say he's better than me because I don't have ten novels in a drawer and he does) well, the impact on my life is not him being an artist, it's him playing monkey pecking order games with me. And I don't much like monkey pecking order games.

I do like art, and music, and writing, however. (-:

Well, I didn't say it so well in my first response to your post either!

Thanks, and you're welcome.

re: twenty-novel guy. I agree with wyld dandelyon - if nobody reads those novels, it doesn't matter.

In truth though, most 20 novel guys are afraid, and that's why they've written so much and sent out so little. I hope they conquer their fear, so that the world gets to share in what they have written. Already they have done more than many "wannabes," in that they've actually written a novel. The people I have no patience for are those who call themselves writers, but have yet to write anything. (I've bumped into a few at parties.) They seem to me to be usurping a title they do not yet deserve.

I think you're argueing a strawman here, because your construction is 'pumping them out' (presumably in shorter time than you assume someone can write a good, polished novel. Terry Pratchett used to write two a year... case closed on that one).

There are people who write for different reasons. There are people who write to have fun writing, who want to share with their friends, who want adoration without going through the publishing process, who want to know how a story ends, who write in a genre or style or at a length that isn't commercial. None of this precludes honing the craft and getting advice from other and being good writers.

The novels in my drawers (other than my first novel which cannot be resurrected) won't, particularly in the current climate, sell. "Well written, but there's no market for it' rejections feel, after a while, worse than 'great idea, but it needs work' because hey, I could *do* the work. I can't turn my comedy-of-manners into a fast-paced action story, or one with vampires and werewolves, or into a 90K mss.

So. Impasse between me and the publishing industry. I either get so bloody brilliant that someone buys it anyway, or they'll continue to sit in a drawer. And there are a fair few people who are being told that 'this won't sell' where this is fantasy based on historical characters, or non-white protagonists, or girls having adventures in YA, or happily polygamous protagonists, or... [all these are real rejections by agents and editors to real writers I know, and some of them bloody good writers.]


But, honestly, on the novel front? If you wanted to write novels, you'd be writing novels. I've finished more novels than shorts, because I think in long, complex plots. You seem to *like8 short stories, you're obviously good at them... so don't treat them as if they were practice pieces for novels. They're not. Publishing slot for publishing slot, it is no easier to have a short story published than a novel, at least if you're looking at the professional end of the market.

Many of the skills you learn on shorts will help you with the novel writing, but it's a different skill. And if they're not your passion, don't feel you ought to be doing it.

AFAIK, most of these were rejections for American writers. Unfortunately, non-American markets are small, and one worrying trend in British fiction is that a lot of it has already been published - in America, and a surprising amount in Australia [at least, according to personal research a few years back. I assume it still holds.]. (I supposed the multi-national conglomerates get a good deal on the rights, but still.) If something won't sell in America, American agents won't touch it, for obvious reasons - and given that there are six or seven UK agents who will represent fantasy, many of us submit to the American market.

I don't think that the reading public is half as close-minded as some of the marketeers would have us believe - but in the end, the reading public won't get a chance to buy books if they are not bought by the relatively small number of corporate book buyers, and if *they* refuse to pick up titles with non-white protagonists etc, then the book will, indeed, not sell.

:-(

Good post and good responses!

I agree with a lot of the points already mentioned. The writers who only talk about being writers and don't write ( been there, done that ), the writer who only writes for family and friends, the writer who has not written a novel.

Which is best?

If you can put words on the page and do, then you have a significant headstart over the people who will--do it someday.

But writing for strangers, versus writing for family and friends, versus writing for yourself changes the ability of the writer.

I do not discredit someone who has not tried to submit their writing. Maybe for them that is not a goal. Maybe they only want to write privately. I'm cool with that.

But the true craft is when you start to write for people who will make greater demands on how you write. Demands that will cause you to dig deeper, work harder, and find ways to improve.

Any writer who struggles to get that improvement, will find that they slowly outpace the ones who only write as a hobby.

In writing, as pretty much everything else in life, you have to have the courage to fail. The 20 Novel guy has no courage. He's afraid of facing failure.

That's the real difference.

Brilliantly said.

Hi Ripley, This is an interesting post, and a great discussion in the responses. Everyone has made insightful, valid points. I think writing a successful novel or a successful short story are two different skills. Many writers can do both; some writers are better at one over the other. In my personal experience, it’s the story itself that dictates its length. Complex characters and story situations demand a full length novel. I’ve written very short stories, lengthy short stories, and I’m working sporadically on several novels-in-progress. There’s a different mind set involved, depending on the length of the work, and I don’t know until I begin an initial draft, which kind of story or novel it will be; so I’d agree you don’t want to force it.

At least the 20 some book novelist claims to let his friends and family read his work. I’ve come to embrace the concept that writing and reading are a collaborative experience; the unread novel or short story has no life. Not allowing his work to be critiqued, and having no interest in being published, however, is probably a cover for an insecurity in the quality of his work. Even for the best writers, including established, published writers, the value of the critique is in verifying what you think you are communicating is coming across to the reader, and that the story structure serves both the story and the reader.

The twenty novel guy is more than likely afraid of some form of rejection. His friends and family read them and he knows exactly what each and every one of them will say.
I myself usually prefer the short story form, but do get excited when the idea for a novel makes itself known to me. It is sometimes a daunting task, but so is climbing a mountain or white water rafting and if people can do that, then by God I can write a novel.

I guess what truly bothers me is when writers belittle one anothers forms, or genres. When novelists belittle the short form, or literary types belittle speculative fiction, when people say chick lit should be banned. That kind of thing gets me a little steamed.

And I belittle 'literature'! There's no such genre, it's an entirely parasitical form that steals works from other genres and rebadges them as 'literature'. It should be banned.

Don't get me started! You wouldn't like me when I'm started!

Uh... okay, I'll move along.

Ok. I get your point. I personally think it's stupid to demean any form or genre of writing. I'm not a big fan of romance, but I don't tell people who write it that they're stupid.

I gots to ask, how come all the guys who post here are scratching their chins? Except for the guy with steam coming out of his ears? Is it something contagious? Is boiling brains the advanced stage of the condition?

OMG! My chins starting to itch! NOOOOOOOO